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  •    Toy Stories and Cut Scenes  
     
    Friday, August 27 2004 @ 04:07 PM UTC
    Contributed by: David

    What is a videogame without interaction?

    I’d call it an “algorithmic artifact.”

    Bottling this concept of the interaction-less videogame in a new term helps me get to an answer for a question that been nagging for a while:

    What is the difference between a film produced on computer, such as Toy Story, and a videogame, which, of course, is produced on a computer?

    The answer probably seems obvious. But as is often the case, the obvious answer doesn’t quite answer the question.

    The obvious answer to this question is that a movie is not interactive and game is. The trouble is, the counter example is no further away than your DVD player and a copy of Toy Story. You interact with the film using your DVD controller. You can pause, fast forward, turn on and off director commentaries and explore supplementary material.

    I know that one move is to argue that even though a DVD copy of Toy Story might be interactive, it’s still not a game because it lacks other game elements—conflict, goals and objectives, strategy, etc. And while I’d argue that these elements (and many others) might be the measure of a good game, there are plenty of examples of simple games that are cooperative, open-ended and based pretty much on luck. At the least, I want to set aside these arguable structural differences for the moment and assert that they are not the significant differences between a game and an animated film.

    Back to interaction for a moment. If we borrow Espen Aarseth’s concept of “ergodic literature”, we might come to the conclusion that manipulating Toy Story on a DVD player is a sort of trivial interaction. So it doesn’t count. It’s not real interaction because selecting things off a DVD menu doesn’t affect the outcome of the story and button presses you make to play the movie are not a part of the actual pleasure of watching the film.

    Of course, this sets up a hair-splitting criteria. The outcome of the plot of a game in the Final Fantasyseries is determined. So, no amount of twiddling with the controls will alter the outcome, just like Toy Story, And while some players may enjoy the endless monster-smashing of a Diablo, there are plenty of players who find the hack-and-slash game mechanic entirely trivial. That is, if I don’t enjoy clicking away at my mouse until my wrist aches, does that mean Diablo is not a videogame?

    The problem is, if you separate animated films and videogames based on the idea of interaction, or non-trivial interaction, you are on the path, but never reach your destination. You can never fully seperate them into the different objects they obviously are. Likewise we reach the same place with other apparently significant differences between games and computer-animated movies.

    My answer lies nearby, but takes a different tact.

    I would suggest that the difference lies in a separation of pleasures. Toy Story is enjoyed as an algorithmic artifact; a videogame is enjoyed as an algorithmic system.

    I argued above that a DVD can be considered a form of interaction. I have argued before that videogames don’t need interaction as a part of their structural definition. The simple summary of this argument is this:

    Pick your favorite two-player game. Set the computer to play the computer. Now sit back and watch. What are you watching? A videogame, right? It didn’t become a film (or even Machinima) just because you don’t happen to be interacting with it.

    The pleasure in a videogame comes from experiencing the system in action—in the experience of the simulation. The pleasures might be more acute when you are directly participating. But the source of the game “fun” is the active algorithmic system.

    The pleasure in watching Toy Story is not in watching an active system. The film is an Objet D’Art, a finished work, a product of algorithms, but not an active system of computation.

    In this sense, an “algorithmic artifact” is a much closer kin to the classic visual arts such as painting and sculpture. “Algorithmic arts” such as videogames then are closer to the ephemeral performance arts such as dance, theater or music.

    Do you have to be on stage playing an instrument to enjoy a musical performance? Is a recorded “live” performance the same thing as being at the show?

    These distinctions are useful in separating and examining the difference between algorithmic artifacts and videogames, or algorithmic arts.

    Why do we enjoy gazing at the finished, simulated scenes of Toy Story? Why is this a different type of pleasure than watching two players clear a level in Halo? Recognizing the difference in these types of media, and accepting that interaction is not the salient feature, is an important first step in answering these questions.






     
             


    Toy Stories and Cut Scenes | 18 comments | Create New Account
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    Toy Stories and Cut Scenes
    Authored by: C. Foust on Monday, August 30 2004 @ 06:27 AM UTC

    What does a movie such as Toy Story have to do with an algorithm? It was merely rendered with a computer. It's not as if they used some sort of story generating machine to think up the plot. It came out of a writer's imagination.

    A story is a retelling of something that might have happened. A game system, like life, is a system allowing for certain things to happen. So a game can tell many stories--many "algorithmic artifacts".

    Pick your favorite two-player game. Set the computer to play the computer. Now sit back and watch. What are you watching? A videogame, right? It didn?t become a film (or even Machinima) just because you don?t happen to be interacting with it.

    Certainly it is still a game, but aren't playing and watching two very different experiences? If I record the session and play it later, it's not a game anymore, but a remembered instance of something that happened: a story.

    Say I showed you two computers playing a game in real time, but I told you it had been staged beforehand, or vice versa. From your point of view there is no difference. You can't interact with what is happening, and since you've never watched it before, you can't predict what will happen. It's just like watching a movie.

    The story of a 'game' such as Final Fantasy is often no different from that of a movie. There just happens to be bits of gameplay scattered throughout. The production we call a game is most often a story and a game, presented in parallel. I'm waiting for the day when we have truly interactive stories, but until then, the game and the story barely interact with each other.

    If you find the game portion of a production to be trivial, then it's simply a boring game. Hopefully the story can make up for the deficiency and keep you playing. In this case, You enjoy watching the story more than you do playing the game.

    The pleasure in a videogame comes from experiencing the system in action--in the experience of the simulation. The pleasures might be more acute when you are directly participating. But the source of the game "fun" is the active algorithmic system.

    Interesting. I suppose that by watching a game being played long enough, you can learn the game as well as if you had been playing it. However, you aren't in control of the learning. If I want to know how a certain strategy works, or see what's behind that door, I have to wait until it happens, or pester the player until he indulges me. When you can interact directly with the system, when the entire system is at your fingertips, that is when the most satisfying learning takes place.

    A story only shows us what happens in a single set of circumstances. A game presents us with a dynamic system, and invites us to play it over and over until we know it inside and out. How could this be accomplished other than through interactivity?

    Why do we enjoy gazing at the finished, simulated scenes of Toy Story? Why is this a different type of pleasure than watching two players clear a level in Halo? Recognizing the difference in these types of media, and accepting that interaction is not the salient feature, is an important first step in answering these questions.

    Some people would watch Halo in the same way they would watch Toy Story. For these people, the game, with its lower emphasis on quality story telling, is disappointing. A female friend of mine, upon seeing Halo in action, quickly dismissed it as "guns and breathing noises". If one watches a game analytically, as a gamer does, they immediately see the depth of the gameplay.

    I like the issues you are bringing up in this article, David. I feel like you are still working on this line of thought, so I'll wait and see where you go with it. Just remember to distinguish between the interactive parts of a game production and the non-interactive parts. The former is the one unique to games, and therefore, the one you need to focus on!

    [ Reply to This ]
    Toy Stories and Cut Scenes
    Authored by: andrewstern on Monday, August 30 2004 @ 03:13 PM UTC
    I think the answer lies is in the difference between
    interactivity and agency. The DVD offers a bit of
    interactivity, but you have no agency within the Toy
    Story world itself -- no ability to affect the goings-on in
    the world. With a game about Toy Story, you have
    some agency within the world.

    http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2003/08/06/
    interaction-and-agency/
    [ Reply to This ]
    Toy Stories and Cut Scenes
    Authored by: David on Monday, August 30 2004 @ 10:00 PM UTC
    On the point that this line of thought is half-baked—good observation!

    Re-reading my post prior to reading the comments makes me realize that there are some nasty problems with the way I framed the question. So, let me back up and try again.

    • Watching Toy Story is fun (in part) because it was produced by a computer.

    • Why is watching Toy Story different than watching someone play a videogame? For that matter, is there a difference between Machinema and watching game play (other than the obvious narrative differences)?

    My solution is to create a thing called an “algorithmic artifact”. Toy Story is such a thing. It is interesting (in part) because it was produced through an algorithmic process. We marvel at the ability of the machine to simulate—we reveal not just in the artificial but in the knowledge that the artifact is reproducible. The system behind the artifact is routine, logical and knowable.

    But I think this is different than enjoying an active algorithmic process—a videogame.

    I really like the GTA discussion of agency and interaction. I’m sorry I missed that the first time around (damn vacation!). I can see that it’s very useful to have a mechanical term (interaction) and a phenomenal term (agency). I would also point out that when I talk about “interaction” I’m more on the side of the fence that Michael calls “agency”, although I agree with Andrew that at a certain point, tiny bits of agency look an awful lot like large amounts of interaction! (I also think the idea of “local and global agency” goes a long way toward explaining why all interaction (ahem, agency) is not created equal)

    Still, I don’t see how separating interaction and agency quite solves the problem. You still split hairs saying that the Toy Story DVD is interaction and a Final Fantasy gameis agency. You might was well call the two – “quality interaction” and “lame interaction.”

    Even at that, I’m fine with that. So, Toy Story is interaction and Final Fantasy is agency. What is watching someone play Halo (althougn shooting and breathing is wonderful wummary!)? I think it’s still a different pleasure than watching Toy Story? Or am I just screwed up?

    I’ll also have to give some thought to C. Foust’s point about story. Where does world agency versus narrative agency fit in? How does the experience of the world system versus the narrative system affect the experience?

    Anyway, thanks for the links and comments. I’ll keep working on this one:)

    [ Reply to This ]
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: CapCom on Tuesday, August 31 2004 @ 01:20 AM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: C. Foust on Tuesday, August 31 2004 @ 03:28 AM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: David on Tuesday, August 31 2004 @ 02:53 PM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: CapCom on Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 03:01 AM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: CapCom on Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 03:19 AM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: C. Foust on Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 04:18 AM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: C. Foust on Tuesday, August 31 2004 @ 07:40 PM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: Strangeface on Monday, September 13 2004 @ 10:50 PM UTC
  • Pleasure - Authored by: David on Wednesday, September 15 2004 @ 05:26 PM UTC
  • Final Fantasy - Authored by: CapCom on Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:33 PM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: peekay on Friday, November 12 2004 @ 10:42 AM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: David on Sunday, November 14 2004 @ 10:59 PM UTC
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes
    Authored by: David on Thursday, September 02 2004 @ 07:00 PM UTC
    What I take away from this discussion (and I'm sure there's
    more in there):

    * There are algorithmic artifacts--things that are interesting
    because they are produced by a computer.

    * Not all computer-produced stuff is an algorithmic
    artifact--eg, the dinos in Jurassic Park.

    * Interactivity or agency is not the best way to separate
    movies from games. However, you might be able to create a
    scale of interaction, with movies on the low side and certain
    types of games on the high side.

    * There is a relationship between time-sequenced events and
    stories. But there's more there that needs exploring.

    Thanks for the discussion!

    -- David
    [ Reply to This ]
  • Toy Stories and Cut Scenes - Authored by: andrewstern on Saturday, September 11 2004 @ 09:23 PM UTC
  • yyy111 - Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, August 17 2006 @ 02:23 AM UTC
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